And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. The debate isnt settled. That changed for me Dec of 2017. There are two effects of electromagnetic waves on human body. And I suspect it could very well be the Sig P320 as it is the epitome of modular.. Of handgun owners alone, 63 percent owned these for the purpose of protecting themselves against other people, with another 20 percent owning them for protection against animals. Japanese quail chicks in a studythe results Everything from grip, shooting stance, limp wrist-ing and recoil spring pressure was examined. If an operator like a .45 go for it. Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. 7.62 isn't pistol ammunition though. The FBI agents had loaded jacketed hollow point bullets into their firearms. I am older now, living in the city. The primary result of permanent cavity damage is profuse bleeding. And I am surprised that this was not mentioned. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. However I agree with you about a .22 in the right place is more deadly than a 50 in the wrong place. The answer is Yes. Not everyone can adequately conceal a full-sized Colt 1911. Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. For those not in the military, go for what you want. I preferred carrying them before things went bad for me. 9mm. I would go with the 38 Super + P. Now you have something to rely on. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. Practice drawing the weapon, aiming it, and firing. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. Ask the Mafia. One of the techniques used by several mob hit men was to use a .22 caliber pistol placed in the soft spot behind and slightly belo Model. Growing up in Alaska, I have shot more than a fair share of big game. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son, We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. People have lived through being nuclear bombed. Thats the secret. The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. In his 1989 treatise, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Supervisory Special Agent Urey Patrick explained that the goal of an officer in a life-threatening shooting incident is to incapacitate the adversary as quickly as possible. But nearly worthless in real world situations. One of the reasons for the 45 why soldiers love the 45 has to do with the bullet itself tumbling once it hits flesh. 45 guy and .357 mag lover . My Kimber .45 is one of my favorite pistols EVER, but its heavy and only has 8 rounds. You probably wont feel as much pain in your hands or joints when the rounds go off as when youre practicing on the range. What will each round acco. The .22, meanwhile. The story makes that even sound too few. For example, a shot through the side of the body must penetrate between 10 to 12 inches to hit the heart. To each their own. who proved the .45-caliber round has SO MUCH more knockdown power than the 9mm that it only requires one shot to incapacitate a threat? But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. Skorpion Ammo Type: 9 mm. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. Look at the Walter Scott shooting. round, you can see all three effects. The 45 1911 did just that. That has been the best comment so far. The 9mm is being adopted by military and law enforcement due to its higher capacity and lower price, as well as the reduced recoil which increases accuracy for many who find the .45 a bit much to handle. The smaller size of the 9mm also allows for more rounds per magazine, as well as lighter weapons. In any event, I used that data when shopping for a lighter and more easily concealed EDC than my .357 magnum revolver and hi-cap .45 ACP. All of this leads directly to the question of handgun wounding factors: the effectiveness of a handgun, lethality by caliber, and stopping power are all important considerations when purchasing a firearm for self defense. Damage: 22 per pellet. I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. Give SOCOM GLocks which shoot 9mm (Glocks are great guns and I dont have a problem with the 9mm, great cartridge especially with all the advancements over the last 30 years) as I was saying problem solved. People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. 9mm will not drop a target unless you hit the CNS.a buddy of mine took a 9mm straight through the head through his eyeball from about 20 yards away. Its round is designed to not only kill the attacker but also to stop him in his tracks. Bullet coursing from behind the knee to my heel. Practice more and dont be proud you cant shoot. Youll immediately learn the, Why didnt I squeeze the trigger when I had the shot? 15 round magazine is better than a 7 round magazine. 0.177" Steel air gun dart will penetrate to shank, in skin, at 120 ft/s. Opinions all ! Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. If youve ever spent anytime shooting steel then you would know which one will take someone off their feet quicker. None used a big cal but all targets were immediately incapacitated and all targets were within 1foot to 20 feet away. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. Q-Did the owners of their weapons replace recoil springs on a maintenance schedule? I have several calibers, personally I like my Sig 239 40cal as my sidearm ! So, as so many have said above, it depends on what you are comfortable with and what you plan to be doing with it. , Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. People kill people. When a handgun is bought for personal protection, whether in the home or on the street, its purpose is the application of deadly force to protect your own life, the lives of others, and to prevent serious physical harm. Ammunition can really change performance. The officer fired three round from his 9mm Baretta 92F. Damage: 23. A true warriors gun. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. are 9mm rounds substantially more accurate than their larger caliber brethren? I never miss. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon. 2. But the US never officially ratified these protocols, and is not officially bound by them. He was 15.. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook, Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition. When all else fails, when the rounds fail to stop the bad guy, then you need time on your side. Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. If knock down power is desired forget the 45 and get a 44 mag or get a 375 they kill most anything one shot. Really lets cut to the chase. Surprising, I know, given the current state of affairs in DC. We will stand at 7 to 20 yards (your choice) and shoot each other in the chest. The saga will never end. The .45 acp bounced off the helmet at 35 yards while the 9mm penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards proving that the 9mm with its higher velocity, flatter and love a SA trigger. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. A sniper friend said once if bigger is better throw bricks he was using a 243 cal not a 300 win mag nor a Lupa 338. Thank you. Oh and dont give me the garbage about 9mm has come a long way since its inception. If one of these conditions occurs, the human body should induce a counterbalance in the form of an opposite condition. It's estimated that chronic kidney disease affects about one in seven American adults. Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! I notice one parameter that seems to be ignored. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. Im in the process to actually buy one. And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones. I believe the 45 ACP would scare many and they would rarely shoot to their capability. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. The P227 Tacops holds 14 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber so 15 rounds is similar to the Glock. 3 more replies -8w7- 13 hr. The threshold for lung damage occurs at about 15 psi blast overpressure. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. There ya go compromise just carry both. WebAs shown in Fig. The results may surprise many as it did myself. If you use .22 mag, muzzle flash is pronounced and may have some fear factor with its use. I trap and shoot most animals with a Browning 1911-22 now. A 9 is a great backup. While psychological factors incapacitate more assailants than physiological factors, they are also the primary reason for a failure to incapacitate. How does air resistance have ANYTHING to do with the terminal ballistics as they relate to penetration? there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. To me the rest dont count. Let the Craftsman pick his tools! Is S&W so inferior that our domestic brand was eliminated? In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. WebAs shown in Fig. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. I used to work in inner city and poor crime ridden areas when all I had was the 45. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and, A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Has the Marine Corp's choice to transition from 45 ACP to 9mm duty pistols settled the debate on which caliber is better? There are other similar handgun calibers, such as the .44 Special and the .45 Colt, and of course, the .357 SIG and 10mm Auto are Officer needs help!! NATO settled for the 9mm as a general service handgun cartridge after the war in part based on the testimony of a whole bunch of old SS guys whod served on the Russian Front. THAT shot better make a change. I was told by a person in the government that the choice of 9mm verses any other round was decided by the cost and mass availability of the ammo periodFor Military, FBI, CIA, Police, Sheriffs and all governmen t branches The victim died immediately. How about a 147gr vs 155 gr comparison? Our team, our mission, our partners, and more. Lee reloading gear. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. If I knew for certain I was going to use my gun Id pack the .45 all the time. Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. When the. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. I would make the same recommendation to all American law enforcement agencies who are considering a switch to 9mm handguns. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. Looking back at the stories we told, and which stuck with us, during an eventful year. Oh yeah, I long forgot where I read it. and manufacturers. Larry Muhr, A little anecdote. Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. Still, I think when we're talking about pistol caliber handguns, it's pretty hard to measure any substantial accuracy differences when we're rarely shooting at distances greater than 15-25 yards if that. After 22 years as a combat soldier, I am kind of partial to the .45 ACP, but I shoot modern, guide rod equipped with aftermarket sights, not rack guns. You have renewed my faith in man. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. I carried a 1911 in Vietnam as well as a 12 ga. .45 stayed on the hip. If I am just going to the range with my son, I prefer the .45. I carried a Colt 1911 while serving in Korea. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. Missing it not an option. Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. You might be able to talk to the first guy. Ballistics engineers try to balance speed, mass, and surface area to make the most effective round possible. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. I just had to get my 2 cents in. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. The Marine Corps Times is not published by the Marine Corps. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! I have small hands for a guy but I have no problems with accuracy. Generous readers sustain our work. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. From my time in the USMC, I saw a certain population fall in love with the 9mm bc of its easier to handle recoil. Either will get the job done for protection. WebChronic kidney disease is a disease characterized by progressive damage and loss of function in the kidneys. I shot Master for a while. The point here is this: it is okay that the Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command has decided to issue only Glock 19's. During each tour I was personally involved multiple combat engagements. And speed causes expansion of bullets in a meat target. Riley, love your artical. The rifle round, which is longer than a pistol projectile, likely also began tumbling after its point collided with his hip. Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. And Im not always concerned with concealing. Just one article about that here: http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/. Note that buying a handgun for personal protection is not an abstract desire. The damage is often extensive, and not just for those who die. I have found that I prefer the 9mm as an EDC concealed carry. Cheap crap. The expansive quality of these rounds creates larger permanent cavities. thats a monster, 67 about 260 and has hands as big as a base ball mitt, when he carries concealed, he goes with a Glock 43 which looks like a toy in his very large hands. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far Shot placement is the deciding factor. Shot with 300 win mag at 500 yards. and Privacy Policy. I think that the argument here has gone the wrong direction. Shot placement vs. So many guns so little time! Its only popular because of the name brand, not the true performance against other guns. The average criminal etc. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. Thanks. I have yet to see this. Also ALL handgun calibers are susceptible to ricochet especially when compared to rifle rounds. I was shot with a 45acp in my right leg. For members of the hand-cannon clique, toting a weapon loaded with anything less is just asking to be shot or killed by street punks who are feelin lucky.. At 70, I choose to go small & straight! I however still allowed to carry a 45 and, will as long as I am able to. The germans used 9mm forever and they know their guns and war making. It makes a bigger hole. 1SGT. Still, no one should select a caliber based on the assumption that it will expand sufficiently to incapacitate an assailant. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. Hit your enemy Quickly and Hes Dead. That much is true. It was a contact shot into the center chest on a sleeping target. It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. According to the song the battle for New Orleans, canonbalks were fired from alligator mouths which showed resourcefulness. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. 1039 NE Loop 410San Antonio, TX 78209(210)-533-5431, 819 Hot Wells BlvdSan Antonio, Texas 78223(210)-533-5468, WE SHIP TO ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, Copyright 2023 Durys Guns | Powered by Durys Guns. WebRock Island Armory 1911 Rock Ultra CS Fiber Optic 45 ACP Sub-Compact 7-Round Pistol $ 679 99 679 dollars 99 cents $ 699 99 699 dollars 99 cents. Physics says my 225 grain .45 ACP ,+P+ traveling at 1210 fps is more capable than ANY 9mm currently available. If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. Awareness of the injury (which often registers before pain), fear of death or greater injury, preconceived notions of what people do when theyre shot, as well as a simple desire to give up can all play a factor in psychologically incapacitating an attacker. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. Because its difficult to pack enough explosive powder into a cartridge thats supposed to fit within the shooters pistol grip, handgun designers typically try to increase firepower by sticking a bigger piece of metal on the end of a round. EVER! But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. Rhee explained that the more massive the projectile, the more severe the wound. Most rounds fired do not hit anyone at all. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. But to suggest they made the change due to the reasons quoted aboveparticularly because the 9mm supposedly has greater penetration due to less air resistanceis complete hogwash! Its why neck-down cartridges for .223 are even used. I got it cheap and after using it and putting a few hundred rounds without any malfunction and also being very accurate. there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. .40 S&W I carry 180 grain HP. Work scenarios out in your head before they happen. The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. In fact you are 1000 rounds short. Theres not the penetration of a 9, because the mass of energy is transferred suddenly to the body in impact. I am a colt Gvt. In that encounter, Sgt Gramins shot the suspect 14 times, any one of 6 of those would have almost certainly been fatal wounds. Creatine is an amino acid located mostly in your body's muscles as well as in the brain. Thats just because most folks never have to shoot someone firing at them. U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as knock-down power. The only thing that can knock a target down is physiological incapacitation or psychological stress. Why arent both so much better than .223? I have formed the opinion that the 9mm is adequate, the 40 S&W is better and the 45 is best. It simply means that if you can shoot someone in the head, basically anything will do. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. When someone has a weapon to defend themselves the adrenaline factor comes in play on both sides but the one with the tracing and experience should come out ok and most of the time the neighborhood thug doesnt have the training etc. What I have also seen on the range at 25 yards, while shooting steel silhouette time after time, was the 9mm would fail to kick the silhouette out of the track 7 out of 10 times without placing another shot. Shot placement is the only thing that matters a perfect shot placement with a .22 gets the job done where a miss with a 50 cal just causes a little blood. The paramedics said he probably would not live. I have a Ruger American 9 mm full size and its twin in a 45 caliber, I will say yes the 45 caliber is a larger round with more in a way push behind it, but I totally agree with the proper placement of that round when firing is the deciding factor. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. Give me a 45 any day! Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Even minor and common factors can significantly impact the wounding ability of a round, including damage to a hollow point through contact with any intervening material, from glass to bone. No vest..and since it was my idea.I Shoot First! I do think a close range the 45 ACP will knock someone down where ever you hit them. Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. If Agent Doves bullet had entered Platts heart, he would have perished quickly, before launching his life-ending assault. Avoid contact with other people's blood and body fluids. Let me now take you back to 1987. It was just announced by Smith & Wesson last week that they are out of the running for the contract. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. We can, however, find the most destructive round we can handle and train with it regularly. Most of the ballistic testing I have seen comparing the penetration of various bullets and calibers would suggest that generally, a .45ACP and 9mm are both quite comparable as far as penetration is concerned. All three shots vital to heart and lungs. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. That and other factors. Youd be much better served with HOT 357 mag loads or a 44mag. However, there are two factors virtually everyone agrees on: 1. Firing Modes: Semi-auto. The pool of cartridges in the study are grouped which makes the data integrity less reliable but each group of larger calibers exhibit significant percentage better lethality. You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. Pretty broad pattern where adrenaline can also make hands shake. I checked him out, and he's legit as far as that title is concerned and where he works. Meaning the shooter, where a second shot will go off up in the air. Using the right bullet is where it counts. Developed in the 1950s, this round combines high velocity with large bullet size. Where aim for the middle of the whole body. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. I am not going to address the whole military, spec-ops, battlefield blah blah. Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. I do believe that whether its a 9 mm or 45 caliber youve got to be accurate with the placement of that round otherwise youre just wasting shots. Small, light, and more rugged than a lot plastic guns. Thank you Bill ! The original FBI testing of bullets conducted in the late 1980s involved testing the Winchester 147 grain subsonic hollow point 9mm round, the Remington 185 grain hollow point .45 round and a 10mm 180 grain hollow point round. Having had lots of time with all 3 (9mm, 40 s&w and 45acp) yes the 9 is easier to fire and carries more ammo but in my experience you need that extra ammo to stop the threat. Spread the word; knowledge is power! Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. Your skull is very thick in places (base of the skull) and some bullets arent designed for that kind of penetration. Other than for general interest, this type of test is of little use in the scientific examination of firearms-related situations. With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. This is why officers typically carry as many shoulder weapons as possible in their cars. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. So if my pill hit my target in a less than optimal body section with ball ammo, Ill opt for the bigger ball every time.
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